DirtyToes

so let me start by saying that i'm now a little scared

i got the head back on fine....the books said to put the cams in so the "in" mark on the intake cam sprocket/gear points left, and the "ex" mark on the exhaust cam sprocket/gear points right....

at this position, the cams did not sit flush on the head, i kept playing with the chain for an hour and couldn't figure it out. the cam "lobes" also weren't pointing in the right direction. so i THINK the cam sprockets were modified before.

anyway, i remembered i took a pic before i took the cams off, so I setup the cams like it looked like in the pic, continued by installing the "holder" and they sat fine..and now the lobes point top left and top right (respectively), just like the book says they should.....only problem is the chain is super tight on the top. ZERO play...it was so tight, that i had to manually spin the motor to get it to sit on the sprocket...again, this is on the top of the chain, is this okay?

off to why i'm scared...i read in the book if the cams are not EXACTLY right, the piston will hit the valves and **** up the motor. i manually spun the motor(still have the head cover off)...and i head some weird noises followed by "hissing" sounds.

how do i make sure the cams are correct before i put the head cover back on and try to fire it up?

poni

engine damage can occur dude. you have to roll the engine over REALLY SLOWLY by hand and a ratchet...if nmo binding happens you are ok. that is all i can say without seeing it. if you have your crank and cams lined up perfect you are good to go. hissing noise???? maybe compression excaping??? not sure. the cam chain tensionershouldn't be put in till you have the slack in the chain on the tensioner side. then you thread it in or bolt on it'll take up the slack. when you roll it iover by hand it, you should do 2 turns and the marks should line back up 100% if they don't get the chain loose and reline them up again. trial and error dude....but don't try starting it till you are sure the marks will line up on the cams and crank

DirtyToes

well, you see the problem is the marks do NOT line up...i remember, even when i was taking the cams off, with piston #1 at TDC....they weren't lined up....

so my conclusion is that whoever took them off last time and installed the sprockets/gears on the cams, installed them wrong...

once thing i noticed last night, when i spun the crank 3 or 4 times, manually by ratchet....it did not go around smoothly, it went around smoothly once or twice, then i had to give it a little extra push to get it to keep going.

p.s. what do you mean by "if nmo happens"

here are some pics...

DirtyToes

so i think i FUCKED up my motor.

after 2 hours, i finally got everything to line up according to the book specs.

put EVERYTHING back together, including headers and radiator. oil, and coolant.

turn on the motor, LOOOOOUD rattling noise...thought it was cam chain, the bike was on for maybe 20-30 seconds.

take everything back off. (except the head)

camshafts + the camshaft holder have LOOOOOTS of scraches on them. :bang head

am i fucked? what happened? what could've caused this?

poni

sounds like the valves hit the piston. **** ....take the head back off and inspect the valves for bends. ya have to line that **** up correct or you are in a world of hurt... the marks on the cams/crank have to be ON 100%

DirtyToes

damnit...and i guess that means new $60 head gasket.
also, do I have to get NEW everything (cams, holder, and head, since they all have scratches on them?

aside from all that, i hope the pistons are fine.

p.s. i posted this problem on the cbrforum and they mentioned it might be cause i didn't put molybdenum oil on the cams...true/false?

DirtyToes

anyone?

Towlieee

damn all that work for 2nd gear..


i havn'et had 2nd on my f4i in 20k miles


You DID use assembly lube, or poured oil all over the cams and everything during assembly right?????

and specifically on f4i's with higher mileage, if you dont replace the o-ring/groument for the pickup, and you remove the pickup, it will have no oil pressure for anywhere from 5seconds to a full minute...

Mine had that problem... I had to get a new O-ring for the oil pickup......

No assmebly lube + removing the pickup = no oil for a while on start up ....

poni

i think you just have to do the tear down and see what's going on in there....i bet bent valves and ****. you are going to need a whole new head period. but don't ask for suggestions until you get it apart and actually know what you need.

DirtyToes

no gear 20k miles? damn, you're the man!

as for the pickup o-ring...****! i had a spare new one too, but completely forgot about it. but i thought you only have to change it if looks old as is cracked and whatnot?

and no, I did not have any molydenum oil, and my dumbass didn't wanna wait another day, so I just put everything back together.

i really hope you're wrong about the valves
TWO questions for your great mind of mechanics:

1. can i re-use the same head gasket? ...**** was $60!
2. I asked a mechanic, and he said that i might have tightened down the holder too much. (I went hand-tight as i didn't have a torque wrench). is this possible?

poni

what is hand tight to one is rippin tight to another...those bolts are held in around 10-15ft/pds. do you know what 15pds by hand is???? me neither. get a torque wrench.

the head gasket.....i had to buy another one. if it's the metal "crush" gasket, they are made to be torqued once and once only. you can try it but i am afraid you will be into re-setting cam chains and everything just tio put the new one back in anyways. the base gasket for the cylinders shoukld be ok to re-use, but the cylinder head gasket is a no-no to reuse, that's where the big strains are. sorry man. wish i could be of more help.

Towlieee

The pick up SHOULD be fine, but my o-ring looked good, and for some reason i'd always lose pressure for 20-30 seconds when I dumped my bike or did anything to lose pressure.. once I replaced it, itn ever takes more then 4-5 seconds to build pressure

And on assembly oil, I've never used it, I always just pour regular motor oil over everything


and you might be able to re-use the head gasket, but idk if I'd risk it.. I mean if it works it works, but if it doesn't its another tear down to pull the head..
I re-use them on 50's all the time, but I wouldn't re-use them on anything bigger

poni

towlee is the ***** that was having similar type issues we all were tearin out hair for!! you kept me up at night wondering why it wouldn't start hot man!!! but +1 head gaskets are usually best replaced, and moly lube is great cause it sticks to everything but engine oil is fine too.

i am just **** with my engines and ****. I'm beyond moticulous. but i'm sure we will or you will get that bad boy up and on the go real soon.

DirtyToes

just to confirm...i CANNOT use scratched cams, right?

anyway...so i decided what i'm gonna do...

get the molydenum oil, put it on the current scrached cams/holder...and put everything back together. if it doesn't make the same old weird sounds...then i'm gonna open back up and install my new non-scratched cams and holder.

...that way if i have fucked up valves, i'll know.

any other advice for during this process?

poni

if you smashed the valves it isn't going to matter, but the valve buckets will be scratched and so will the cam lobes. i think you are up against a wall...eventually the cam will wear out and you will be doing an engine job again.

DirtyToes

****! ****! ****! ****! ****! ****! ****! ****! ****!

i officially have the WORST like with re-building motors.

so i went to pep-boyz, bought some moly grease stuff....after an hour...i line everything up and put it back together..

start the bike, it sounds fine!

so i start screaming like a bitch...out of excitement that i got it to work...then i see a **** load of smoke coming from the front of the motor

thought it was just some oil off the headers but it kept getting worst and worst. i examined the headers while the bike was running and i noticed 2or3 leaks from the head gasket!!!!

WTF?!!!

note that

1. i did NOT re-use the same head gasket.
2. cleaned the **** outta the head before i put the new gasket on
3. torqued all the bolts down

after a few minutes of the bike running, the idle started fluctuating real bad...meaning i have low compression which can be caused by a blown head gasket?

HOW CAN THIS BE POSSIBLE?

...the only thing i can thing off are
1. when i was cleaning the old gasket material off the head, i made a few very light scraches.
2. someone at pep-boyz told me you have to buy new head bolts because they strech

I'm reaalllly ******* pissed, someone please tell me wtf i did wrong.

poni

yea man, i am glad it ran for you with no noise!! that is a bonus!!

next, head bolts can stretch, check the rebuild manual if they prompt you to change the head bolts when reassembling the engine. is it the lower gasket or the upper cylinder gasket??? another thing i have seen is the head gasket can go on upside down or backwards and sometimes it is hard to tell the diff'. not callin ya a dink at all man, i almost did it to mine, i was in a rush. if it did get flipped over, it could leave a small gap in the mating surfaces.

let me know what you find, clean it up and look to see if you can see the gasket materials squished in between the mating surfaces.

QUESTION- did you use a agressive cookie on a die grinder o remove gasket materials or just a hand scrapper??? you can take off aluminum in the slightest amounts creating hills/valleys in the mating surfaces and compression can leak out.... there isn't alot of tolerance for irregular mating surfaces because the gasket is crushable metal/paper thin and doesn't "soak" up irregularities like material gaskets do.

sorry to hear Dirty one......keep posting,. you are getting there!!!

DirtyToes

"dirty one"....AHAHAHAHA ROFL ...that just made my day...night, it's 4am here.

anyway, it is the lower one...no i didn't put it on upside down...i matched it with the dowel holes in the gasket..

the manual does not say anything about replacing the bolts

and i cleaned it with a small razor...and i know 100% i cut a few very fine scratches on the bottom of the head. but i've done that before on oil pans and covers before so i didn't think it was a big deal...didn't realize there was wayyy more compression in the "combustion" chamber.

so wut now...get a 3rd head?

poni

holy **** 4am???? I just got to work, had my coffee and eating my cereal here reading what's going on with your ride.

was the lower gasket a crush gasket too??? man this is a ******* nightmare for you!!! i wonder if the lower gasket is a 1 time use too???
bad memories of my rebuild are coming back....you start second guessing everything you did. DON'T!.

hate to say it but i think you may have to re-re the gaskets again. the lower gasket shouldn't have compression leaking out unless the piston rings are going past the lower cylinder gasket seal. remember that.....

so .....you said it runs funny etc....i'd say get that leak fixed and see if it runs odd after that....might be a vacum leak etc.

****...now my cereal is all soggy....nothing i hate more than soggy cereal.

DirtyToes

you're 100% sure right, nothing is worst than soggy cereal, especially it it's cocoa pebbles.

anyway, definitly not a vaccum leak. i've already checked everything.

by the "lower" gasket, i meant not the head cover rubber gasket...but the $60 crush gasket that goes between where the head meets the block...aka the combustion chamber.

i was just hoping this wouldn't happen, cause now i have to spend ANOTHER $60 on the gasket.

this little project has cost me roughly $200 so far...

p.s. sorry about your cereal. find me a new head gasket for cheap and i'll ship you a new box + milk.