Matt Gorka

Alright...this is a serious discussion, so anyone with input please join in...I get PM's all the time about front end setup and mostly it's from people who ride F4I's who want to bolt up something with an inverted setup. I have never rode a stoppie on an f4I, so my opinion could be disproved with some facts, but here is my question: Why does everybody seem to think that an inverted fork is better for stoppies and why do people junk their stock front ends for a 954 or 929 setup? How can an inverted fork possibly give an advantage over a regular fork when in a stoppie? Facts please. From the best of my knowledge, inverted forks were designed because they're more rigid for left/right transitions because of the locations of the stanction tubes. I completely understand that the geometry/spring/valving/brakes are essential for a good stoppie setup, but inverted vs. regular is of no concern when you're on the front wheel. I'm assuming that people do nothing with their stock forks and bolt on a 954 front end that may have a different rake/trail/fork length or something that gives better feedback, but if that is the case, someone needs to get a dimensional measurement to determine what rake/trail/length is ideal so it can be replicated by loosening the triple bolts and moving the forks up and down to find an ideal stoppie setting.

Back in the day, the ZX-6 was the Stoppie bike. Joe Brown and Matt Weber introduced this country to long stoppies on it and Colbert immediately followed because "it must be the bike". That lasted for about a year or so. Back in the day, the 900rr was said to be a bad stoppie bike, but with some tinkering, it turned out to crush (like that?) the world record...Then the 929 came into play, probably because Joe Brown (again) rolled some long-*** stoppies on it and everyone immediately hailed it as THE bike to roll stoppies on. Now, nobody can roll long stoppies on a f4I, so it must be the forks...why not bolt on the 929 front since it was such a good stoppie bike??? The point behind this thread is there needs to be some logic behind this madness. I have a hard time believing that a front end is only judged on how it comes from the dealership....and considered worthless without ANY type of adjusting or modification.

Some tech guru please post the rake/trail/fork length of a 929, zx6, 900rr, f4i so we can compare and figure this out once and for all what the secret formula is.

Judd

i went from the f4i stock front end, to a 954. I started learning stoppies on the f4i front end. it wasnt bad. acted somewhat like a pogo. i put the 954 on it. it seems to make the bike more aggressive. and it has better input via the brakes. in my opinion it makes the bike a whole different beast. i love it and dont think i would ever go back to stock. i would love to see people roll some super long endos on a stock f4i.

KF_Chris

people are more prone to blame the equipment for what the "can't" do. I'm not **** talking about anyone with a swapped front end, or the reason that ANYONE did it. But human nature is human nature.

Crazy D

Is there a weight difference between these two forks ?

Matt Gorka

I'm interested in the feedback of the stock front end...What makes it bad? How is it in a stoppie? Pogo is spring rates/valving. Does it push, or get headshake? Let's figure this out. A fork is a fork. They're ALL straight. Some are stiffer, some are longer, but they're all straight. So it seems to make sense that unless the triples on a 954 give a different rake/trail that can't be achieved by adjusting the stockers, it could be achieved on the stock front end with a 12mm and 14mm wrench and a set of springs. This post is to invoke thought and analysis....If all you want to do is swap a front end and forget about it, you'll probably never roll long stoppies because to go far you need to analyze a million things from body positioning to approach speeds, pickup height, brake input.

Matt Gorka

What does "more aggressive" mean? Does it come up faster? I'm really trying to figure this out, so if people would elaborate a bit more, maybe we can determine what an ideal setup is. Hell, if I asked tire and pressures, a million people would tell me a diablo and 18 psi...because of. Or gearing on a f4i...I don't think anyone would hesitate with the ideal sprocket setup.

Judd

aggresive in how you are positioned on the bike. you are more in the bike then on top of it with the stock front end and clipons. it leans you more forward on the bike. I dont think people analyze into it much anymore. I am starting to get more and more into them, they are addicting. The 954 front end seemed to give me more confidence over the stock. i am not sure why. it felt more sturdy. the brakes had alot better feel, grip to them. all stuff that i am sure could be achieved with a stock front end. I had ridden f4i's with 929/954 front ends and liked the way they felt in comparison with the stock, and thats why i changed.

Crazy D

Here is some info of a 2000 929 fork .

Not alot .... but some info

Inverted front forks -- the first on a Honda open-class sportbike. The new 43mm Showas weight 2.6 pounds less than the 900RR's. Even better, a 17-inch wheel is found in between. Woo-Hoo!



Inverted telescopic front forks are a first for an open-class Honda street bike. The rear shock supplies 135mm of up and down wheel travel and mates with the 110mm of travel provided by the new forks.



Engine 929cc liquid-cooled inline four-cylinder
Bore and Stroke 74 x 54mm
Compression 11.3:1
Valve Train DOHC; 16 valve
Carburetion PGM-FI with automatic choke
Ignition Computer-controlled digital
with three-dimensional mapping
Transmission Close-ratio six-speed
Final Drive #530 chain O-ring-sealed chain
Suspension Front: 43mm inverted cartridge fork with preload,
rebound and compression damping adjustability;
Rear: mono-shock with spring preload, rebound and
compression damping adjustability;
Brakes Front: Dual full-floating 330mm discs, four-piston
calipers
Rear: Single 220mm disc, single-piston caliper
Tires Front: 120/70ZR-17 radial
Rear: 190/50ZR-17 radial
Wheelbase 54.9 inches
Rake 23.8°
Trail 97mm (3.8 inches)
Seat Height 32.1 inches
Dry Weight 374.8 pounds
Fuel Capacity 4.8 gallons, including 0.9-gallon reserve
Colors Pearl White/Red Pearl Yellow/Black

California version meets CARB 2004 emissions standard.


Hope it helps

c.m.c steve

AMEN

TEACH C6

there is NO logical reasoning to switch them....mostly it is a head game and i play into myself, hence the 05 RR's instead of the 04's. i refused to build anything but the 05.

some theory: f4i front ends seem to be soft, but as you said, this can be changed easily with some springing/valving. but i think, imo, that the forks will flex more versus the inverted types. inverted forks are so strong that they will bend frames instead of the forks bending (seen it a million times at argos) when they hit something. this has to translate into stoppies as well, maybe even taking out the variable of a slight fork flex.

Dan jackson does fine on his f4i, but he uses his body a lot...and even likes them to pogo easiliyu! personally, the only thing endoeing the bike for me is the brakes being applied by 2 fingers, i dont hump, move, or whatever....call 'em chauncey stoppies-sit in the seat and use the brakes.

just some thoughts...but i'll stand by my first statement: it's a mind fukc and people do what they THINK will help them.

btw gorka: opeRRation bandwagon is in full effect....and secondly, talked to the kid the other day, time to go motarding!

Nick Apex

I should note first that I **** (don't spend any time) at endos. I liked the stock front end, its was not bad but at the same time the brakes were small and it was so ****ed by circles and combos that I sold it and will continue to upgrade every time. I've seen Dan Jackson roll decent endos on a stock front. I've seen Oliver crush endos on a 954 front. The reason I like the 9-29/54 setup for even short endos, power endos, worst 180 attempts ever seen, all that I can do, is because its solid and that puts confidence into the front end. To me confidence is everything, trust the bike, just go for it and you can do anything. The large rotor must be a big plus too if you're a distance guy. Just the good old nature of things would allow someone who was cutting edge to get just that little bit more with a superior rotor and master setup. In the end we really just want a reason to PM you.

alexcod

i did the front end swap really casue alot of people told me it would help for not just stoppies but other tricks as well , one thing i liked about it was the clip ons were pushed out a bit further than on a f4i , no matter now cause i have after market clip ons pushed pretty far out , but on the stoppie matter i dont really have any technical knowledge but as far as doing stoppied now versus before with the old front end it feels tighter more solid easier to steer and more responsive , why i couldnt really tell you , i also am not really all that great at them anyway , i did much better stoppies on my 02 gsxr 750 than i have ever done on my f4i for some reason , but i have seen some people kill some pretty long stopies with the reg f4i front end , i think the swap is woth it only if you plan on really doing alot of stoppies , having to buy the forks , fender , clip ons both tripple trees rim rotors etc can get pretty up there in cost !

Jeremy Dutch

I have a 1000rr front end on my f4i.

Dont' roll really long stoppies.
Changed them because i bent my stock one with a crash.

The things i notice.

The bike feels more stiff/controled when it comes up.
Comes up faster
The fork is 10 cm shorter so that makes alot of differences
Comes up harder with an wheelie. But you get used to that in a second.
The Brakes are stronger but really good to controle. Better then the stock ones.

Also the springs and everything is changed in the front end. By WP (spring company who does motogpbikes)
The feel of the front end is real good now.
It feels perfect only thing is me. I think to much while doing an endo.

A friend of mine has a stock front end and that feels as a dirtbike frontend compared to mine.

MikeM

I just did the switch, and I also suuck at stoppies even tho I do practice them quite a bit.

First thing I noticed when i put on the 929 front was the lack of tire lock up. Same tire, but now I can bring it up twice as hard without the tire locking up. I used to have to heat it up for 2 or 3 minutes before it would grip nicely, now I dont heat it up at all. Im a physics nerd, and I still dont know why this is. My suspicion is that the front of the bike may be higher now, but I didnt think to take any measurements before i did the swap.

Next thing I noticed is the brakes. Even tho 929 brakes are as good as it gets, I dont think thats a key point in the equation, not worth talkign about.

Then once you're up, its a whole different ballgame. the 929 front end just sits there in one spot. If you roll over a small bump, it absorbs it and remains stiff. With my f4i front end, if I rolled over a crack in the itd be bouncing all over the place from it.
I tried a few different suspension setups hoping to get rid of the bounce, but never did.
First I tried turning up preload, compression, and rebound all the way. That was worse than stock.
Next I tried minimal preload and compression, and rebound turned up. The theory was that the front would go down and stay down and hopefully not bounce. It still bounced, but I got alot less tire lockup.
I was about to try heavier oil then i found a good deal on a 929 front. Without any tuning the difference is night and day.

f4rider

i see no reason to switch. I noticed that a few people mentioned "pogo'ing." Lower the compression damping, and raise the rebound damping.

TheProdigy

im rolling 300+ ft on a stock f4i front end ive talked to tim barnes about helping me with the springs\revalving and heavier fork oil treatment ive been experiementing with the compression latly right now its bone stock with everything set as stiff as it will go

GSE Nick

nothing wrong with the forks....but id say to put different springs in them i think its the springs in the stock forks that ****

MikeM

I think the springs are ok, but the damping just cant get stiff enough

-Nasty-

u forgot to ask about DB bars being on then rather then clip ons, or clip ons turned out all the way

that will also effect the set up

SIC Nate

Regular vs. inverted...the "advantage" to inverted fork set up is that the exposed tube area is much shorter in the inverted setup so you get less flex from the tube. If you are in an endo and the stock tubes are flexed, I dont think it would change much during the endo (unless you are pogo-ing or are giving alot of ubrupt brake input) I suppose the flex could make it more likely to lean requiring more body input to roll straight? maybe


I dont own or ride an f4i, but I would imagine that the 929/954 feels better than the stock set up on the f4i because it is set up for the heavier 1000 class bike, therefore making the factory set up stiffer when put on the f4i.

Also, (not knowing for sure) I would think that the 1000 class forks would have more distance from the lower tripple to the axle..changing the geometry

And finally, the 929/954 clip ons are wider than f4i, which would give you a better feel.

I think the stock forks would work well if re-springed and re-valved.